Driving Value at Breitling: How Sustainability Creates Competitive Advantage with Aurelia Figueroa

In this episode of our podcast, Maximilian Schmitt, co-founder of The Sustainability Circle, sits down with Aurelia Figueroa, Chief Sustainability Officer at Breitling, to explore how the brand is redefining luxury through sustainability. From building traceable supply chains to launching first-of-their-kind products, Aurelia shows how sustainability has become a source of both credibility and competitive advantage.

Topics covered include:

• Turning transparency into a driver of value in the luxury industry
• Building supply chain traceability
• Balancing tradition with bold moves as a first mover
• Aligning leadership and stakeholders through double materiality
• Creating authentic products that accelerate both impact and sales

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Maximilian: Hi people. Welcome to another episode of the Sustainability Leaders Show. I'm Max, co-founder of TSC, and I am your host today again. Every episode we bring you insights, success, stories, and practical advice from top sustainability leaders around the world driving sustainability in their organizations.

And today I have the pleasure of speaking with Aurelia Figueroa. Chief Sustainability Officer of Breitling, one of the most prestigious luxury brands in the world.

And today we are going to discuss how Breitling is leveraging sustainability as a major driver of value, not just as a buzzword. But as a real competitive advantage. Aurelia, welcome to the show. Pleasure to have you here.

Aurelia: Hi Max. Thank you so much for having me, and it's great to be with you and the listeners today.

Maximilian: So Aurelia, let's dive right in. The luxury industry has often faced criticism for its environmental and social impact with very recent scandals like the Dior sweatshop issue in Italy highlighting the dark side of luxury. What has been your experience with turning around that perception in the luxury market, and how does Breitling approach transparency in the wake of such scandals.

Aurelia: Yeah, it's a great question and I think it's a really interesting and pivotal moment for the luxury industry. Indeed, we have pressures coming from many different sides, and we also have some opportunities that are peaking through the clouds as well.

Long story short, I think that consumers have never been more aware or more keen to know more about their products and the origins from which they were produced than right now.

This is, of course, a huge opportunity for sustainability that I think brings in a new paradigm of value creation. So I think that really the opportunities for luxury brands and certainly for Breitling is to really engage proactively in transparency.

And we see, of course, that regulations are catching up with societal values and consumer demands in creating new frameworks for transparency and traceability.

There's numerous. Regulations that I could name off in an alphabet soup if I wanted to. Maybe we'll get into that later. I won't open that Pandora's box right now. But long story short, I think it's a fantastic opportunity to add to the intrinsic value of luxury to deepen the quality narrative by taking a step beyond to really consider how, where by whom the materials that are found in our products are produced.

And then really being able to enrich the storytelling with that while of course, following and achieving sustainability objectives that we've set for ourselves.

Maximilian: Very true. Couldn't agree more. I think there is a huge opportunity right now also to capture that demand. So if we wanna get a bit more concrete, what are specific actions you've taken to drive transparency and accountability? Particularly then also around the supply chain and labor practices.

Aurelia: Yeah, so if we start from the beginning, we began to formalize our approach to sustainability at Breitling in 2020. And in fact, I joined the company today exactly five years ago, and one of the first things that I set out to do was to conduct a double materiality asessment. I'm guessing that all of the viewers are, going to know what that is in case not just to break it down quickly, to really understand what are the impacts on the business and what can be the impacts on society of any given range of topics that are pertinent to your own activities as a, company.

And we identified at the time 10 material topics, so you can find those in our historical sustainability mission reports that are all at Breitling.com. We maintain those between 2021 and 2023, which is then when we switch thereafter to the European Sustainability Reporting Standards. So you'll see our latest material topics there.

But to take a step back to that first round, so we identified 10 material topics of which the top three were social impacts along the value chain. Environmental impacts along the value chain and product integrity. And so we then took those as a lens to really review the full scope of our activities and ask ourselves, what can we do better here?

And that was really the baseline and the framework with which we then began a range of initiatives. So our industry leading transition to traceable gold from specified artisanals. Small scale sources to lab grown diamonds from responsible suppliers and to really make all of this information available to the public.

And from there and from many other initiatives, in fact, cascaded a range of objectives that we have with regards to community impact and with regards to nature protection. And so, yeah, I'm sure we'll find the chance to get into that later in the discussion too.

Maximilian: Definitely. I think there's so much potential in your value chain to really make an impact there. Are there some specific challenges that you could highlight that you encountered along the way while increasing transparency?

Aurelia: Oh, absolutely. the challenges were there at each step along the way, and what was really key to be able to address them was to be able to find the partners who really shared our values. who like us. I mean, our, it's not a perfect story. We have all of our work cut out and ahead of us. At first, we needed to simply just be able to understand who is ready and willing to support us in our efforts.

So who actually can facilitate this traceability among the refiners with whom we work, among the range of potential gold suppliers among our tier one suppliers who are finalizing some of the components for our product. And then to be able to understand what are the opportunities for us to work together on a range of topics related to social and environmental impact.

And then how do we really enable this traceability? So how do we make use of blockchain? How do we really record our efforts along the way? And most importantly, how do we set a roadmap? For improving our activities as we move along. And I think what was then really key to us is being able to identify those counterparts who really share our sense of urgency.

Maximilian: I mean, when you created all of these baselines and right now have the transparency in your value chain, I think then there is a lot of, improvement potential also when it comes to value creation, right? I mean, sustainability, especially in the latest years has been often seen as a cost center.

But what you've demonstrated at Breitling in the recent years is actually that it can be seen as a value driver, and especially with a recent backlash against, sustainability regulations with the omnibus. I think this is more important than ever to really make the case for sustainability in order to get not only the stakeholders on board. But then also, to convince the board of the fact that sustainability is actually something that will not go away. So can you share some specific examples? Like, for example, the development of sustainable products that created tangible value for Breitling.

Aurelia: Yes, absolutely. So I think what's important, first of all to say is that when we released, our first product in this scope, so that was the Superchronomat 38 Origins. I have the pleasure to wear it right here. It's my favorite watch, has so much storytelling behind it. I've been directly and personally to work with the suppliers who supplied the gold who supplied the lab grown diamonds. I know by name the people who were involved in the production, and I know them. More importantly, we know each other very well, and we have a very good exchange that is still, ongoing, especially for the purpose of achieving our sustainability objectives.

And I think that what was really essential in that regard was to be able to understand, like I mentioned, through the double materiality assessment. What are the demands of a broad group of communities with whom we work? Of customers, of suppliers, of employees, of sustainability experts, representatives from the media, watch collectors, which is exactly what we did.

And I think what was so fascinating is to see that even among this disparate group of individuals, it was about a hundred people worldwide, is that we had the same desires. And I find that astounding because I view sustainability actually as the great unifier. I think that polling is consistently showing we want more nature protection across the political spectrum.

Just to give one of many examples, and I think that we in the end probably have more similarities when we think about outcome here than we might anticipate. And to be able to then talk about value. For me, it goes back to the plural values. So really being able to clearly understand what were our objectives to keep those in mind as we proceeded.

And I think that allowed us to create something that was incredibly authentic and we were not trying to create something that we had been told to create. We asked for what were the important objectives, and then we turned to ourselves with the Brilliant Minds and Breitling. I mean, there numerous counterparts here that really guided and shaped the work that we've been able to deliver. And it's been really a full house effort, that we've made. Then we were able to create something that was. Of genuine value and interest to the consumers. And so in case of those products that we are now releasing to the market with traceable diamonds, lab grown diamonds, traceable, artisanal gold, we see that they have an extraordinary rate of turnover.

So they're really exiting, the, sales floor much faster. can we attribute that entirely to sustainability? To speak very frankly, we haven't made such a, highly methodological approach to be able to understand the role of sustainability in that, but these were products that were designed with traceability, with sustainability aspects fully in mind, and we see that they're performing extremely well in the marketplace.

So, I mean, this is one clear example that we have of these attributes and contributing to value creation.

Maximilian: Yeah. So you especially leverage those attributes and all of the traceability that you did for the marketing purposes. And this is also why, yeah, the products are so well perceived in the market, as I understand.

Aurelia: Exactly, and we really built that in from a perspective of traceability. So we appreciate that sustainability is a subjective, topic. so we really wanted to, more than anything, empower the consumer. By sharing information on a very open and transparent basis about how the sourcing was done, what are the impacts of that?

Who has been involved, what are their qualifications and what has been the achievement to date? And then being able to share that with the consumer so that they can then be the judge. Is this meeting my own sustainability expectations in the end?

Maximilian: Oh, that's super interesting. So could you maybe entertain a bit that thought? So what lessons did you learn during this product development process and how did you factor in maybe sustainability into the decision making?

Aurelia: Yeah, no, it's I mean, I think it's fair to say it was really occurring throughout, and the lessons that we've learned have certainly been manifold. I mean, I think the most profound one is to really, and I know I'm a bit repeating myself from what I said earlier here, but it's really to find those partners in the supply chain with whom you share values.

And this allows, I think, to work at speed. and Also that you're sharing this sense of urgency. And that was important because we were able to come to the market first. We do have this first mover advantage. It was a bit of a, close run, you know, so those, that extra months, that we added in, did. Did matter in the end.

And that I think is really key. I, like the, adage of going slow to go fast and really taking the time at the beginning to come onto the same page together. Go in person, whether that may be to South America or to India, to really meet your counterparts and to understand how it is that we wish to work together.

And I think I found that really just enables the process moving forward in a very supportive manner. With regards to the product development, I mean, we really considered this from the very beginning. I mean, what was also the quality attributes of the watch? And we have design wizards, at Breitling who were really able to, contribute the full extent of their genius so that we could come out with an extraordinarily beautiful product.

It wasn't anything that was less premium. Than our other watches. Quite the contrary. It is a really extraordinary and beautiful watch. So we really lent the full extent of Breitling capacity to the design, and then we were able to take in considerations like the lab grown diamonds, the size that we would be able to use for those and other attributes to really make sure that this watch was living up to the values of the supply chain that we created behind it.

Maximilian: That's a beautiful example of how you can actually leverage sustainability to gain a competitive advantage, and then being a first mover, especially in such a traditional industry like luxury. I mean, of course it comes with rewards, but it also comes with a lot of risks. So what's been your experience with the burden of going first at Breitling and how do balance that with the opportunities for growth and innovation.

Aurelia: Yes, so to speak, maybe first on the tradition part, and it's amazing because, you know, we just celebrated at Breitling last year, our 140th anniversary, and I find that the opportunity to combine sustainability with tradition is a great one because it, it brings up for me a fundamental consideration of: while we collectively as a society have done a lot of harm. There is value in some things, and many things that we have created that needs to be maintained. So really moving cautiously in that place of sustainability and using tradition, using heritage, using storytelling to bring us forward into this new sustainability paradigm.

And I think that's something that we've done extraordinarily well at the brand. Another great example of that, that comes up is the shift from an aviation perspective. So Breitling has a storied history in aviation, and that's something that we certainly maintain within the brand. What that looks like today is, for example, becoming the first buyer of sustainable aviation fuel from Swiss International Airlines.

So really maintaining that pioneering perspective, keeping that tradition, keeping that extraordinary storytelling, and then raising ourselves up to the question of how do we then move with this and act with this intentionally to create and be a part of a new paradigm. And to speak to the first mover burden.

I think that goes back to me, to the pioneering spirit, and that was really something that we highlighted across our 2024 sustainability mission report. What does it mean to be a pioneer? And I think what we strive to do is to take this brand heritage that we have in being a part of pioneering activities and apply it completely to sustainability as well.

So I gave the example, you know, already of becoming the first buyer of sustainable aviation fuel from Swiss International Airlines. That could also look like becoming the first buyer from Climeworks solutions, which we also did this time last year in 2024. And that burden ultimately, I think is the uncertainty of going into the unknown. And it can also be, you know, a very real financial burden, time burden. We have created new structures that did not exist, which have been very onerous to create. but in the end we believe that it's really going to allow us to be able to deliver on the objectives that our communities worldwide expect of us, and to be able to just really live our brand values. In an authentic manner. So ultimately we're getting those advantages and that value creation.

Maximilian: Yeah, of course. I mean, taking big risks then often comes also with gaining big rewards. But anyways, it has been a bold step, right? You enhance the brand. You develop the brand further and added to it the sustainability aspect, and it turned out to be pretty valuable for you. But then again. Often sustainability leaders in other companies are a bit hesitant to take bold steps because of course there is also risks involved.

So how have you convinced the top management, or if you even did that, but how did you approach that? Why working together with the top management and other stakeholders at Breitling to take action even when the path forward isn't always clear.

Aurelia: Yeah, I mean, one thing I should definitely say is that we have a top management that's very sensitized and very aware of sustainability topics to begin with, which was just an extraordinarily leg up. And I mean, the best example of that is by far our CEO, Georges Kern, who is on top of the game on sustainability and, you know, constantly pushing us to do more and as well our shareholders, to whom sustainability is very important.

So this was. This was an extraordinary baseline, to be able to leverage for the direction of the sustainability strategy. And what was really helpful to guide the discussions that we had among ourselves is to have this double materiality assessment. And for anyone who hasn't conducted that, I mean, whether you are party to the corporate sustainability reporting directive or not. I highly recommend to conduct this exercise because it provides the fundamental roadmap to prepare your initiatives. And if I may say, not only from a sustainability perspective, from a broader corporate strategy perspective, and that really gives I think, the clear pathway to, to achieve your objectives from which everything then needs to cascade.

So being able to go in, in the original case in 2020, to the Breitling management team and to share that and to see that we had alignment among our stakeholders was very powerful, especially since it was a representative group and that facilitated for us an alignment among what are our values? What is it we wish to achieve? How do we wish to operate? You know, we wish to operate with transparency. We find that traceability is very important. We really wish to have a tangible, meaningful impact on environment and society. And then, I mean, that, that's a pretty good and clear structure and framework where then you basically need to fill in the gaps and then, you know, begin to actually just do the work.

Maximilian: Yeah, that's true. I mean, first of all, if you have a management that is already convinced from the get go, that's an amazing baseline to have. And if you then are fortunate enough that this double materiality process is really done by a group of representative stakeholders that can really bring the company together and align everybody on a good baseline to then think about what can we do to actually improve, the company going further.

Maybe. Can you share a moment when being a first mover paid off in ways you hadn't anticipated? Because that's one of my favorite questions to ask. There are so many cool side effects that could surface. Is there anything.

Aurelia: Oh, absolutely. So when we released the Superchronomat 38 Origins in October, 2022, we were able to achieve over 500 media articles in one month, which was really kind of extraordinary. I mean, there was such a demand for this storytelling. We had three articles in the New York Times in one week. And we were really taken up by, by the top outlets which I think just really gives credit to the fact that this is what we're caring about as a society. And we were really able to tap into these key issues that are of great shared interest. And I think that it's fair to say, I think we were all very pleasantly surprised, borderline shocked by the response that we got.

I remember that I took November, 2022. I was basically on, I don't know four to six interviews a day. It was really extraordinary, the response and, that felt like a real, endorsement of not us, but rather our, stakeholders and our community groups who provided their input and then to the approach that we were able to define in order to meet that.

Maximilian: That's such a great role model case. if you really are able or willing to take bold steps, how this can pay off and really amplify your brand's reach in such a short amount of time, that's a cool product launch. Congratulations.

Aurelia: Thank you. Thank you.

Maximilian: So now we know that you actually accomplished what many people or many sustainability leaders want to you embedded sustainability at the core of the company strategy and at the core of the culture.

Otherwise, such a product launch wouldn't have been possible. So let's maybe dig a bit into some real world challenges you faced while doing that, and then maybe also some lessons learned that you can share for our listeners.

Aurelia: Yeah, sure. I mean, maybe to take a step back, you've given me a lot of credit, but I definitely want to say that. So when Breitling was sold in 2017 to CVC Capital Partners and the new management team led by  Georges Kern came in, they really determined at that time to have the brand lead in the neo luxury paradigm. Which is casual, inclusive and sustainable luxury. So I just wanna make a footnote, which is a, an important one for me. That, that the brand had really already adopted that sustainability would be core to this. And then I was so fortunate to be, selected to come in and to, really lead and formalize our efforts beginning in 2020.

And I think that as we've been able to do so, and I, it probably sounds like I'm repeating myself, but in the end, I think the messages are pretty simple. I mean, really aligning to what our values were and then being able to have a product oriented focus, and this was a clear guidance that we received from the very beginning. That we didn't go out with any big promises, even though we made our strategy in 2020, we kept it quiet until the day of the product launch in 2022. Because we wanted credibility and we were concerned that to go to the market and to say within X years we're going to be offering traceability in our products, it just wasn't enough.

It was, it seemed like it would be a big promise without, kind of justification at such an early stage. So we said, let's create a roadmap. let's go to market with the first product so that we say, look, we, have at least an idea of how this is going to be made with the first products. They're in the market, they're for sale right now.

This is our overarching strategy. This is what we're going to achieve in the next three to five years, or in the case of our climate targets and, in the medium and long term as well. And this is how we foresee that we're going to be able to get there.

Maximilian: All right, so what were the common pitfalls you've encountered along the way?

Aurelia: Yeah, I mean, it was a bit of, in some cases, building the plane while flying, and we had to develop, like I said, just really new frameworks. I mean, what was the practical process in order to most efficiently gather all of the documentation that we needed to evidence the traceability and to really streamline these processes for our suppliers and to understand what was the nature of maybe more, forward thinking, documentation and evidence that we wanted to use to really, document that.

I mean, I would say. Probably also a lot of learnings from the testings phases, how we could have made those more efficient, which is something I think that we can see only in retrospect, and we've used that to improve our processes meanwhile, for sure. so I think those are some of the main topics that come up for me in terms of potential pitfalls.

Maximilian: All right, and what's the one lesson you've learned that immediately comes to mind?

Aurelia: it's yeah, it's a great question. I would say have the difficult discussions first.

You know, you know that kind of that topic where you kind of go during the day and you kind of finish your other work and then it comes around at the end. I would say do the hard thing first.

That, is my advice.

Maximilian: It's cool. So, I mean, sustainability isn't just about quick wins, right? I mean, you demonstrated that, perfectly well. it's really about creating lasting change. So how do you ensure that your sustainability initiatives at Breitling are scalable and will continue to create value long after the initial excitement fades, for example.

Aurelia: Exactly. So I think that goes back to what I mentioned before. So being able to come to market with the first pilot and, on a broader perspective, always to work on a, pilot basis. And that was something that I probably left out in the lessons before. That's been really key for us. we never tried to eat the whole cookie at once. We, we always began with a pilot and that allowed us to move fast. that's basic learning, but I would be remiss if I didn't mention it. And I think that, yeah, these efforts are really strengthened. Then, to go back to what I shared before, being able to have this first evidence to give everyone confidence. Because again, we're working in spaces of utter uncertainty. We're working in the unknown. It's uncomfortable. That's normal. And I think it helps to give everyone some perspective and some comfort to say, look, first example is here. And from there, I think that we really enable ourselves to keep a wide perspective, to operate at the top of our capacities, to really expand our approach and to address all the efforts we need to meet and to create a roadmap, you know, that is ambitious and yet still realistic and in which we feel confidence where we can say "yes, we feel that this activity should take roughly this amount of time." and to be able to go forward on that. I mean, we don't have comfortable targets. We have targets that are, you know, keeping us up at night and I think it, it also needs to be like that to some extent.

This is an incredibly urgent topic that we're working on and we need, perspective. Absolutely.

Maximilian: Yeah, and it's true. I mean, also as a learning to surface for me, while listening to your answers, it's you create this double materiality assessment in the top management, and you have everybody on board, but to really excite all of the stakeholders in the company, it's such a fabulous way that you create one of the core products in a sustainable manner. And with that, you bring all of the company, everybody actually together to work with you and to understand what the top management is thinking about sustainability when it comes to the core product.

Aurelia: Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's incredibly powerful to just have that example available and in front of you.

Maximilian: Yeah, that's good. And then also there's the question always, how do you balance short-term gains with long-term goals? Is there something that you could say to that?

Aurelia: Well, yeah, I mean I think that goes back to our approach as well too, right? Being able to go to the market with something that is able to generate a value return for the company. And meanwhile then using that as an opportunity to really describe what our targets are. And I think that in the broader sustainability space, you know, we got into the target spree 2020 to 2022, where everyone you know, and with all good intentions I think in most cases was coming to the market with a more and more ambitious target on a kind of regular basis. And it brought us, I think, into a bit of a heady space. Don't get me wrong, targets are super important. We have them too. It's just that I think we also need, and that's exactly your question, we also need to understand in the here and now, what does this practically look like to give us perspective and maybe in some cases to realize, oh my gosh, this target is super ambitious. This is super hard. I need more resources. We need more resources in order to be able to deliver on that, and I think that's really a risk mitigation measure for these ambitious targets that we set in sustainability, in fact.

Maximilian: I think it's where it's even more than that. It's sustainability, as I said, is often seen as a cost center, and if you tackle it from the risk aspect, of course that's nice, but if your company is not doing well economically, then even the risks, you know, could be, ignored, at least in the short term. But when you make sustainability to a value driver, like you build a new product and you promise that if you get the resources, you really bring revenue for the company, I think then you you made a clear case for sustainability and the short gains are very clear. So that's a good example.

And as we look ahead, how do you see the future of sustainability in the luxury industry? Because you made that amazing example right now. Maybe the others need to follow your footsteps. and maybe then, adding to that, are we moving in the right direction? And what's next for Breitling in terms of sustainability?

Aurelia: Yeah. Yeah. So I think what is next for luxury and sustainability is, first of all, I really believe this is the next competition horizon, and I think that consumer awareness is in the process of rapidly increasing. I think today we're more likely to ask more questions when we buy a banana.

You enter the store, wanna grab a snack? Okay, is it fair trade? Is it organic? which country is it from? And you know, maybe you're taking 15, 30 seconds to make up this decision for a product that's costing 50 cents, one euro, and maybe you enter then a luxury space to buy something which is costing five to ten thousand euro. And I think we may have some very powerful images in our mind of, oh, this was made in an artisan, in a rural village in France or Italy, who is paid very well. And this is coming from a historical tradition, and unfortunately that's not the case all the time as we're now aware. And as we become more aware, I think we will just really continue to ask these questions and be ready to also ask them during the purchasing process and to expect that this is adding to the quality and to also, if I may even, price justification for the prices of luxury products and really coming into the full scope of the consumer consideration along the way. So for me, it is the next space for competitiveness, and that would be for me certainly in the, original selling of a product, but also in resale. And the certified pre-owned program you know, I'm delighted that we at Breitling have this and that it's well developed thanks to the great work of our colleagues. You know, this topic still remains relevant. Maybe you'll find a, gorgeous, secondhand ring available online, but, okay, where did that gold come from? And, you know, and I would maybe have a question to the viewers today, if you're wearing, a treasured piece of jewelry.

Do you know where the gold and the precious materials in this have come from? Do you know the story and do you know the whole scope of where they could have potentially come from? And, you know, kind of what is that impact on us as a consumer, as our interaction with this product, with this brand, with this story, with this narrative that we have defined around it?

So for me to answer your question. It is the next competition horizon.

In terms of kind of how maybe we collectively in the retail industry, if I may, are performing, I would say, As a, and now I speak as a consumer myself, that the speed is not moving for me fast enough. So I have, as a person, dramatically changed, my own shopping decisions because I may not be able to find anything in a certain category that's meeting my expectations. So I may withhold purchasing. I certainly am directing as much purchasing as I can to secondhand and pre loved products. but again, still wanting to be able to understand more about the background there. Nonetheless, I think that we're going to get there. I think that the consumer citizen is in the process of retaking their crown, their tiara, and is going to be really key in shaping decisions across the retail industry and really driving that.

Meanwhile, we also have regulations that are informing how we're proceeding. And to be very frank, I do have hope for the outlook. I think that we are collectively as a society in the process of answering some important questions about what we value and the future that we wish to have, and I wish us all the very best and kind of refining those questions and being committed to answer them through all of our actions in our daily life.

Maximilian: Yeah, couldn't agree more. I mean, I love the appeal to all of the customers. I think there, there is a big potential that everybody is thinking about, okay, what are the decisions that I can influence in my consumption? But then again, as you rightly pointed out, it's great to have such a first mover as Breitling, because right now we have such a product as the Origin Watch, and you as the consumer right now, have first time the opportunity to decide, Hey, am I going for that sustainable watch or am I going for the normal watches? And, this is great to see and I hope that we see many more great examples, especially in the luxury industry, in the coming years from there. So thank you very much for that great summary, of our call and maybe before we wrap up.

Let's, zoom a bit out. What's one piece of advice you'd offer to fellow sustainability leaders who are working to make sustainability a core part of their business?

Aurelia: I think that it would be to facilitate in an as objective manner as you possibly can because, and the reason I say that is I think we as sustainability professionals, we, can have so much of the destination in mind that we want to move towards. And I heard something brilliant when I was at the Villars Summit, which is "first we need to fall in love with the problem".

And we need to give space for everyone to voice themselves and to be heard in this process and to bring each other on board in an inclusive manner. We need to embody inclusive values in the way that we work and to, listen and to collectively develop, our objectives together. So. I think that would be probably the, recommendation that I have is to fall in love with the problem, to create an inclusive space, to allow all voices to come to the table and then together to really design a strategy that is genuine and authentic.

I am of the opinion that the value creation follows from that, however. I think it's worth testing, you know, especially with certain stakeholder groups and community groups. What are the expectations there? And being able to use those, of course, as well to orient along the way.

Maximilian: Couldn't have wished for better last words. Thank you so much for joining me today. It was a true pleasure to have you on the show and learn from all of the great work that you are doing at Breitling. and to everyone who's listening, thank you for tuning in today and see you next time at the Sustainability Leader Show.

Aurelia: Great. Thank you Max. Thank you everyone.

Maximilian: Bye bye

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